Last night there was a flat earth debate between Lori Frary of the Flat Earth Conspiracy Youtube channel, Darren Nesbit (Daz Nex), Jeran Campanella (Jeranism) and David Weiss (DITRH). Lori and Darren were critical of the Azimuthal Equidistant (AE) round disc model, and they were promoting a 4D “Pacman”-model. I’ll discuss it later. Jeran and David were defending the Azimuthal Equidistant model. Overall I don’t think the debate itself went very well, since the AE model defenders were mostly muddying the waters instead of trying to understand their opposition’s point. All of the participants did get to reveal something about themselves at least.
The Crux of the Debate
I won’t go through the entire four and half hour debate, instead I’ll focus on one bit of it that sums up the whole debate pretty well. Towards the end of the debate Lori and Jeran are discussing simulation theory, different flat earth models and so on, then suddenly around 3 hours 48 minutes, Jeran says: “I think that you guys, and I’m just being completely honest, you either have something either against Mark Sargent, or for whatever reason you feel like…” Then Lori laughs and says she could care less about Mark Sargent. Jeran’s remark comes completely out of the blue, and is entirely irrelevant to the debate. Moreover, when you have to preface your argument with a “I’m just being completely honest”, it probably means you’re not. I doubt the name Mark Sargent had come up at all during the debate prior to this. I think by doing this Jeranism completely discredits himself, as it sounds like since he has no proper argument to defend his beloved AE model, he is trying to paint Lori and Darren as some sort of haters. As if they resent Sargent for introducing the AE map, but Lori points out that “Dubay brought Rowbotham and Rowbotham brought the map”. Jeran used similar derailing tactics elsewhere in the debate to distract attention away from arguments for the 4D-model or against the AE-model, but this was the most obvious example.
I cannot say what the underlying motivations of Jeran were for all of this, but somebody noted in the chat that Jeran has made a lot of money by pushing the AE map, which is why he is pushing it, and this makes him a shill. It might be that Jeran basically believes what he is saying, but he is blinded by his confirmation bias, and the fame and fortune he has made by praising the flat disc, so he is unwilling to entertain other possibilities. In the end of the debate, he even said that he will keep pushing the Azimuthal Equidistant map until he sees evidence that discredits it. He has seen plenty of evidence against it, but he is ignoring the evidence. I do believe that this makes Jeran pretty much irrelevant when it comes to flat earth research.
David Weiss on the other hand seems like he is the handler of Jeran. I haven’t seen many videos by any of the four people in the debate, and I am not well versed with any of them. The first time I heard about David Weiss is probably when Sofia Smallstorm had asked Jim Fetzer to debate flat earth with him. Weiss simply came off as crooked as a three dollar bill. That’s the impression I always get from him. I do think he is a smart guy, but extremely untrustworthy. When I saw a video, which I have discussed in previous posts, that Flat Earth Asshole mirrored from Antonio Subirats where David Weiss is saying the reason FEA went against the Azimuthal Equidistant map is because he is in “low-vibration” and influenced by demons is when I got my confirmation. My impression of David Weiss is that he is a perfect example of a gatekeeper. Some of the questionable antics of Jeranism might be explained with ignorance, but I don’t think that applies to David Weiss.
A famous maxim goes: “Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.” I try to adhere to that, so the reason I am discussing these e-celebrities is to highlight how the flat earth movement has been infiltrated, or even hi-jacked by infiltrators. As time goes by, I’ve begun to respect Jake Gibson’s, i.e. Flat Earth Asshole’s, and ODD TV’s decision to call out Patricia Steere and Mark Sargent as shills even more. Both of their accusations are based on MGTV’s research, so the kudos should go to him. Often it is counterproductive to go out on shill hunts, since in the end it might end up biting you in the ass and distract from proper research, but since the attraction has been opened, we should ride it to its conclusion.
If I recall correctly, David Weiss said toward the end of the debate that no-one is a shill, that everyone is just trying to figure out the truth. Let’s think this through. Every single flat earther, including those in the debate, believe that the globe model of the earth is a lie. It’s a conspiracy that has lasted for centuries. They all believe in this vast global conspiracy, yet according to Weiss and some other flat earthers, there are no infiltrators in the flat earth research community. So basically when people began to find out the globe model is a lie, not simply false, but a deliberate lie, and the conspirators even faked the moon landings to further that lie, yet they simply let the flat earthers do their research with no interference? Does this sound credible?
Certain “flat earthers” are trying to make it seem like the reason there are conflicts within the flat earth research community is simply due to clashing of egos, nothing more sinister is going on. Flat Earth Reset showed a clip on his channel of a discussion between Mark Sargent, Patricia Steere, Robbie Davidson, IPS and some others I don’t know. One guy was saying: “Even if every single one of us had a history with the CIA, it wouldn’t make any difference. As Robbie so eloquently put, the truth is the truth no matter who says it. So who gives a damn if we’re all CIA shills?” Technically he is correct. The truth is the truth even if it’s coming from a bunch of CIA agents. However, do you really think that a bunch of CIA agents having a circle jerk are going to tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Is it not reasonable to suspect that these agents might have ulterior motives? Do you think that the people who have invested a lot of effort over the course of centuries into the globe lie, would not try to derail investigation into the true nature of the earth with disinformation? Anyone who is saying it does not matter whether the CIA is infiltrating them is a CIA agent or very daft.
Moreover, I should point out that you cannot have an open and honest discussion with someone who is acting in bad faith. Whether it’s about the flat earth or more mundane issues. Debates with shills are unlikely to aid the pursuit of truth.
The Pacman Model
Enough of shill talk. I’m going to discuss the 4D Pacman-model that Darren Nesbit and Lori Frary are promoting. The basic idea is that the earth has four corners, be it a square or a diamond-shape. When you step off the map, let’s say in the east, you appear on the edge of the map in the west. Like in the game Pacman, if he steps off the screen on the right, he appears on the left. Another way to illustrate it would be to depict the earth as a continuous rectangle. The continents keep repeating how far you go east or west (I’m not sure what happens is you go off the map in the north or south though. I should look into it more). According to this model, the earth is basically a cylinder without curvature. If you’ve played Sid Meier’s Civilization games, you should know what I’m talking about.
Certainly when I first heard about this model some time ago, I thought it sounds ridiculous, but the same could be said about the flat earth as well. According to Lori and Darren, this model is the one that best fits observations. I don’t know if they are correct or not, nor am I convinced this model is correct, but I do think it warrants serious consideration. After all, are there any other reasonable alternatives?
I do like the argument that Darren Nesbit made that science might be able to reveal the supernatural nature of God’s creation. Also either Lori or Darren said that maybe God barred off his creation with doors instead of walls. Ultimately though, I would like to see a model that does not require supernatural explanations, but if it is impossible to explain the shape of the earth and the movement of the sun with regular physics, maybe this is the natural next step.
Live! Flat Earth Map Debate: Frary, Weiss, Campanella, Nesbit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKBZ-9dEgxY&t=
Flat Earth Psychosis MIRROR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVjf6uhyDWI&t=328s
Flat Earth Reset: Flat Earth Gate Keeping Pt1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHdSg8Smbk&t=933s
WHY the official FLAT EARTH model is WRONG, and WHY it matters…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAdH-u_NJlk